Question: But in case of a sage, in case of a jnany, he also lives in the world. So at times he is in that state where the world exists or not – doesn’t really matter for him. But the moment he starts interacting the world, as you said, hell might be starting even for a sage.
Karl Renz: That’s why I say – there is no way out. Even a jnany has to interact. So hell doesn’t stop. But what can stop is like that tendency of avoidance can stop. That is called a jnany. Only the tendency stops and not by trying to stop it. It stops when it stops. And in case of a jnany it stops before the body dies. Because in the moment the body dies and all of that, for sure all the tendencies go. And in the case of a jnany or saint it stops before. That’s all. So they worn out. The tendencies worn out. And then you call it a jnany. Because then there is no tendency of avoidance, and that is you call peaceful.
Or even the tendency of the tendency to avoid stops. So even there can be a tendency of avoidance but there is no tendency to stop the tendency. That’s more the case.
Question: So avoidance of… trying to avoid the unpleasantness. So natural thing.
Karl Renz: That’s what I mean. But the personal thing – he wants to control the tendency. Because he thinks the tendency is good or bad. For jnany, which doesn’t know anymore what is good and bad, tendencies are just the way he is realizing himself.
Question: He doesn’t try to avoid unpleasant things?
Karl Renz: No, maybe he even tries to avoid unpleasant things but he doesn’t take it personal. That’s all. It’s not his avoidance. There is simply no ownership – that’s all. There is simply no relative ownership. That’s the whole difference. In the presence of a relative ownership there is an idea – that is “yours”. This very whatever. And in the jnany – he doesn’t know what is his and not his. There is an absence of one who defines himself as that little one which knows “my life”.
He doesn’t even know if it is his life or not his life. So he doesn’t even know if he is a jnany or not. Because if a jnany knows a jnany, for sure there is one jnany too many. So whoever claims to be a jnany, watch out.
Question: There is something still there. But is still there.
Karl Renz: It’s still but.